About this episode
George Saunders is tired of being the “kindness guy.”Saunders is one of my favorite fiction writers, and a friend of the pod; I talked to him back in 2021 and 2022. He also has a reputation as a kind of guru of kindness, thanks to a viral commencement speech he gave back in 2013. We talked about kindness on the show before.But with the publication of his new novel, “Vigil,” I noticed that something about Saunders seemed to have shifted. He was pushing back against that public persona, and wrestling with darker themes.“Vigil” follows an oil tycoon who, on his deathbed, is visited by angels and people from his past asking him to reassess his life. And you can feel a tension in that book that is also very alive in Saunders himself — between recognizing how much of our lives are conditioned by our circumstances and the need to pass judgment to reckon with the truth.In this conversation, I discuss that tension with Saunders. I ask him about his relationship not just to kindness but also to anger; how he defines sin; whether he believes in free will; and what he thinks lies beyond kindness.This episode contains strong language.Mentioned:Vigil by George Saunders“What It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World” by The Ezra Klein Show“George Saunders Convocation Speech 2013”“A Tough Question Indeed” by George SaundersEast West Street by Philippe Sands“When Is It Genocide?” by The Ezra Klein ShowBook Recommendations:I Will Bear Witness, Volume 1 by Victor KlempererRed Cavalry and Other Stories by Isaac BabelThe Place
