About this episode
In this episode, Dcn. Harrison Garlick, Chancellor and General Counsel of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa, welcomes Dr. Zena Hitz, a tutor at St. John’s College and founder of the Catherine Project, to discuss Aristophanes’ comedic masterpiece, The Clouds. The episode dives into the play’s biting humor, its critique of Athenian society, and its timeless questions about education, piety, and moral decay. From the Thinkery’s absurd teachings to the mysterious Clouds, Dcn. Garlick and Zena unpack the play’s relevance to modern audiences, exploring themes of social ambition, familial breakdown, and the consequences of abandoning traditional values.Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more!Check out our Patreon page for our library of written guides!Key Discussion PointsAristophanes and The Clouds: Born around 446 BC, Aristophanes, the father of comedy, wrote The Clouds in 423 BC, nearly a decade into the Peloponnesian War. The play, a revised version not performed but circulated for reading, critiques Athenian decadence and intellectual trends through the story of Strepsiades, a debt-ridden father, and his son Phidippides. “Aristophanes in general is interested in portraying through this kind of ridiculous, sometimes slapstick, sometimes obscene comedy, certain truths” – Dr. Zena Hitz (16:47).The Thinkery and Education: The Thinkery, led by Socrates, teaches deceptive rhetoric and speculative inquiries, parodying new intellectual movements. It raises questions about education’s societal role. “The question about what an education is for and whether it helps the community or hurts it is a very basic fundamental question” – Dr. Zena Hitz (19:53).Piety and Political Stability: The play links reverence for traditional gods to social cohesion, showing how the Thinkery’s impiety destabilizes family and polis. “Belief in the gods is standing in for… sticking to the moral code that’s keeping the whole society together” – Dr. Zena Hitz (31:08).Socrates’ Portrayal: Socrates is depicted as a buffoonish sophist, but his role is ambiguous—possibly a stand-in for broader trends rather than the historical figure. “Strepsiades is the target… Socrates in a way is just being used to show something up about Strepsiades” – Dr. Zena Hitz (44:01).The Clouds’ Role: The personified Clouds, worshipped in the Thinkery, symbolize deceptive speech and align with comic poets, adding complexity. “Clouds cover things up. So there’s some kind of image for deceptive speech” – Dr. Zena Hitz (49:20).Socio-Economic Context: Set in a wealthy b
